Let me start things off by saying I know how sex works. I did it, I'm responsible, it's my problem (but not my choice)...I get it. I accidentally made a kid, and now my purpose is to raise her. All that I understand...but how exactly is this a blessing? From this angle, all I see is that I need to get better with birth control.

People always told me this was some miracle...looks an awful lot like an accident to me. Let's see, I'm now stuck with an unwanted responsibility for the next 17+ years, have to deal with the other party involved on some level for that long (and oh what a treat it is), am having my wages garnished for child and baby mama support, and haven't had 10 minutes to myself since I should have that one night. If this is a blessing, it's wearing a great disguise.

I never really wanted kids...didn't really stop me from getting one. That is what it is, but the fact that everyone tells me that I should be happy about it and thinks it's so great pisses me off. it's not that I hate kids, I have nieces, nephews, and baby cousins, and they're fine because I can send them back to their parents when they're done being cute. I just don't like being stuck with one of my own, and I don't think I ever will.

I do what I have to do anyway...I just want to know what's so great about it.

Fatherhood does suck. For guys like you.

What's great about having kids is generally what's great about life: you get back pretty much what you put into it. You put in cynicism and laziness, you end up surrounded with dipshits and assholes that can think of nothing but their own entitlements. You work hard and sacrifice and give love, you end up surrounded with honorable people that care about you.

Good luck with that.

See, but that's the assumption guys like you make. I was perfectly happy before this happened. I had a family, and was happy with them. I was fulfilled in life, had a job, money, fun, all that stuff that people pretend they don't care about once they have kids.

There was nothing I would change about it...then it changed. For the worse, I'd say. My love interest at the time turned into a crazy hormonal bitch, I now pay half my check every time I get one to her, I don't have time for anything when I'm watching the kid, I'm responsible for raising the world's deadliest animal from birth to maturity, and oh, by the way, I'm stuck dealing with the aforementioned crazy hormonal bitch for the next 20ish years. Yeah, that cloud may have a silver lining, but it's probably radioactive uranium.

1) What Clay said.
2) Pre- or post-natal? Most of the awesomeness of fatherhood isn't apparent until the kiddo is ex utero. It's kind of like when parents tell their kids they'll understand when they grow up. You'll see.
3) It does suck sometimes. It can be frustrating as hell. There are plenty of times I'd love to drop-kick my rugrats. Then again, I could honestly say that about just about everyone I've ever loved. Life's like mashed potatoes - you have to take the lumps with the good stuff.
4) Why not try to be positive about it? As you said, the deed is done. You can either spend the rest of your life bitching and moaning about it, almost certainly ruining the life of your child in the process, or you can decide to never think of your child as a mistake, never make her feel like a mistake, and make an investment of love.

Investing in love is as risky as investing in stocks, but you have to take big risks to win big.

"To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket- safe, dark, motionless, airless--it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable." - CS Lewis

1) What I said to him.

2) I'm open to that possibility...less so since I got a girl, but it could happen. Oh, and post. It's only better now because I don't HAVE to see her mom as much.

3) True, but there's no legal or financial penalty for leaving the rest of your family when they become a problem...oopsie-kids, not so much.

4)The last positive thing in my life was that pregnancy test. Now my life is a swirling cesspool of child support payments, interactions with a woman I hate, and duty caring for a messy humanoid pet I never asked for. I already took my big risk, and it's what got me in this mess...thanks, at least, for trying to answer me though.

"The last positive thing in my life was that pregnancy test. Now my life is a swirling cesspool of child support payments, interactions with a woman I hate, and duty caring for a messy humanoid pet I never asked for. I already took my big risk, and it's what got me in this mess...thanks, at least, for trying to answer me though."

Boy, I bet you're a lot of fun at parties.

Seriously, though, I reiterate my point that the deed is done. She's here. She's not just the product of a mistake. She's not just a tie to a woman you hate. She's not just "a messy humanoid pet" you never asked for. She's a human being, for Pete's sake! She's a person! Quit thinking of yourself and think about her!

Look, I have never EVER been in, nor can I foresee, a situation in which complaining makes it better, however bad it might be. The only way I can see your situation suck less is if you decide to make it suck less. A piece of advice from my marriage prep class: Love isn't a feeling. Love is a decision and a commitment. Love is an active state of being.

Go and love your daughter. Please, for her sake if not yours.

P.S. I sincerely hope our "tough love" approach doesn't drive you away. We're here to help you if you'll let us.

P.P.S. If I hastily misread something and you really have a son, sorry. I'm a bit distracted at work.

I promise, I was a lot of fun before I had a kid...even at the parties I DON'T GET TO GO TO ANYMORE.

The deed is done, I never disputed that even before you commented. She's alive and well, and much of that is thanks to me...I just will never forget how the whole thing started. Since I have an IQ of over 5, I think memories are to be expected.

I care about my daughter. I want her to be safe and happy, etc. I just never signed up to do it, and as a result resent the circumstances...but people do jobs they hate for their entire lives, what's so different about this? I'm not going to leave the kid out in the streets, but I'm not going to pretend I wanted a baby...it insults the intelligence of all parties involved.

Oh, and I don't at all mind being spoken to frankly...hell, I do it, why would I expect less from those I'm speaking with?

"The deed is done, I never disputed that even before you commented. She's alive and well, and much of that is thanks to me...I just will never forget how the whole thing started. Since I have an IQ of over 5, I think memories are to be expected."

Nobody expects you to forget. They just expect you to move on. Resent the mother if you must. Resent yourself, if it'll make you feel better. Just don't resent your daughter.

"I care about my daughter. I want her to be safe and happy, etc. I just never signed up to do it, and as a result resent the circumstances...but people do jobs they hate for their entire lives, what's so different about this?"

Your job isn't a person. Fatherhood is more than a job. It's a relationship.

"I'm not going to leave the kid out in the streets, but I'm not going to pretend I wanted a baby...it insults the intelligence of all parties involved."

I think I've found the problem, and it has to do with how you asked your initial question. "What's so great about having kids?" The answer is, "Nothing, per se." What's great is being a father. I have no crystal ball to see into your life, but nothing you have described qualifies as fatherhood. Conceiving a child doesn't make you a father. It makes you a sperm donor. Supporting the child you conceived doesn't make you a father. It makes you a responsible human being. Real fatherhood requires a personal relationship with a child, preferably one based on love and respect.

There's nothing particularly great about merely having kids. What's great is being a father - somebody's daddy. Until you decide you want that role - really want it - you will never understand what guys like us are all about.

"Oh, and I don't at all mind being spoken to frankly...hell, I do it, why would I expect less from those I'm speaking with?"

Good. I'm not generally known for my tact.

Oh, so I should resent everyone but the epicenter of the scenario and the continuing reason for my frustrations. Not saying you're wrong, but just think about that no kid, no problem concept and see how logical it seems to harbor some negative feelings.

Jobs are a relationship as well...between employee and employer, between co-worker and co-worker, between office self and normal self...they don't call it "Human Resources" because you work with robots.

I think being around for roughly half of the time she's been alive constitutes a personal relationship. I'm not getting paid, so it's not professional. It's not platonic, because we don't have a lot to talk about yet. We don't live in the deep South, so it's not romantic...not a lot of other ways to deal with a person. I do what I have to do, but I'm not going to feel privileged to do it when i was forced into it.

Oh, and I'm not an overly tactful person either, if you can fathom it...

Giving benefit of the doubt is a huge thing for me, but I hate being played. So I have to ask. Are you trolling us?

I know, anyone willing to troll forums has no qualms lying. I still have to ask.

This happened.

This is you.

Would you like some clarity?

Wow. Really? You come to the premier all about Dads site looking for someone to tell you "hey, it's ok to think being a Dad sucks." I use the term "Dad" in your case VERY loosely.

No. It's not ok. Forced into it my ass. Man up.

Dads come here stoked to be parents. Conversations are about parenting. New Dads here are perhaps worried, scared, confused, looking for answers to various dilemmas, but how to get out of it is not ever going to be a welcome topic here.

At this point, I feel so very sorry for your daughter. May she never know the real you. If all of the above is truly how you feel, you don't get it, you'll never get it, no matter what any Dad site forum, or therapist, ever tells you. I recommend you pay the money(don't be a deadbeat), but stay the hell out of their lives, you are not contributing any value as a family at all.

And for fks sake get a vasectomy before some other family has to deal with you.

Funky Dung- Nope...I assure you, I'm a real person with real concerns...coherently challenging an established viewpoint hardly qualifies as "trolling".

Indulge me, enter "I don't want to be a..." into Google and see what the most popular searches are. I'm not trolling at all, just saying what a lot of people feel.

concretin_nik- Hey, look, I'm not looking for any validation. I was looking for an explanation of why reproducing (especially unintentionally) is this grand, instantaneously transcendent miracle instead of a simple bodily function that, applied poorly, could decrease the general quality of one's life.

Oh, and you're right. Forced into it, what was I thinking? I forgot the part when my birth control didn't malfunction, the part where I got input on whether to keep the baby, the part where I got an opportunity to leave without penalty, and the part where I'm not paying to support both the child and her worthless mother because I didn't sign up for either. This was all my choice.

I never asked anybody if it was okay to feel the way I feel. I also never asked for advice on how to get out of it. I know I'm stuck on some level forever. Your reading comprehension (and I use the word "reading" extremely loosely, as it's clear you did not) needs some work.

You know what, I feel sorry for her too. Every child deserves two willing parents...however, that's not something her mother took into account before she was actually born, so she has who she has. I handle my business, but a smile is not part of the contract. I stuck around because I was willing to try and let this whole thing grow on me, but if you were giving advice to every person who didn't want kids when they had them--and despite your idyllic image of parenthood, there are plenty--the deadbeat rate would be twice what it is now. Bet you're proud of yourself, though.

Do you even hear what you're saying? Pay and stay away? That's like "pay the car note, but you better not touch it", "you're not invited to the party, but send gifts", or "why don't you invest in this business and we'll go ahead and keep all the profits." Sounds great to me...I don't know why it didn't occur to me before.

Oh, and the last bit epitomizes what's wrong with the way things currently work. "Oh, if you don't want kids, you have to have this risky and expensive elective surgery out of pocket or suffer the consequence." Meanwhile women get every out and option possible (sometimes FREE) before, during, and even after birth to decide exactly how they including birth control other than a plastic bag over their genitalia. That's fair, don't you think? I can't imagine why anyone would raise issue with that.


Anyway, thanks for allowing me to expound my stance.

"coherently challenging an established viewpoint hardly qualifies as 'trolling'."

I didn't just hop on the internet yesterday. I know what a troll is. It's not remotely unreasonable to consider the possibility you're trolling us. Urban Dictionary defines a troll as someone "who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument". The extreme narcissism/egocentrism and open disdain for fatherhood you've exhibited, and the fact that you're exhibiting them on a forum for people who feel proud, honored, and blessed to be fathers, are certainly provocative and have the potential to cause a great deal of disruption and argument. The point of my question was to get at whether you're being deliberately provocative.

Having asked and received a negative response, I will give you benefit of the doubt. You may be lying, but I'm comfortable proceeding knowing that I gave you the opportunity to be honest. So, if you continue to interact in good faith, I'll keep up my end of it. Try to see it from our point of view, and maybe you'll understand our hesitancy.

Now, getting back to the heart of the matter...

"Oh, so I should resent everyone but the epicenter of the scenario and the continuing reason for my frustrations."

Uh...yeah. She's innocent in all this. She didn't wish herself into being. All she knows is she's here, and her "father" wishes she weren't. Resent that she's part of your life if you must. Don't resent her. It's not her fault.

Again I say, why make a bad situation worse by whining? Are you a man or man-child? It's time to grow up, frat boy. Everything you've said is just a more articulate way of having the same kind of tantrums my ~4yo does. He whines "I don't wanna!", stomps his feet, and refuses to do what he's ought to because he's too young and immature to understand personal responsibility. That's something I need to teach him.

Heck, maybe that's it. Maybe your father failed in his duty to raise you to be a mature member of society. Maybe you never had a decent role model for fatherhood. Maybe the fellow doth protest too much and really does want to be a father - and a good one - but he's scared to death of screwing up his kid the way his dad screwed him up. Maybe your father wasn't a failure at all, but for a reason out of his control (such as death at a young age), he wasn't around to be a role model.

"I think being around for roughly half of the time she's been alive constitutes a personal relationship."

That's a pretty shallow understanding.

I don't know what the deeper problem is, but I'm confident your dissatisfaction with your undesired fecundity is only the tip of the iceberg.

I always told myself it couldn't get worse. IT CAN! I love my kids and wouldn't trade them for anything. Enjoy what you have been given. It gets easier as they get older.

A child is not a car, party, or business. Your argument is completely invalid.

My reading comprehension is spot on in this case. No matter how you try to pretend you're trying to create "open discussion" here, you're looking for an easy and socially acceptable way out. You won't find it here. Funky has said everything perfectly. Get over yourself.

You have the choice of being not only an uncaring and resentful father, but a completely absent one, like you really want to be, and are going to be eventually anyway. Fine, don't pay your child support. But that will lead to a whole different level of problems for you to whine about.

YES, I meant exactly what I said. Pay your support to avoid deadbeat problems. And disappear from their lives. That will eliminate all these other whiny ass problems you have, so what's the problem? You can go to the courts and do all of that legally. Get a restraining order against that horrible woman. You don't want kids? Ya can't handle a vasectomy? Ya best stop fkn. Because clearly you don't know how sex works. There's ALWAYS a chance.

Look, validate your resentment and cry all you want, somewhere else. Go start boohoo.com or maybe mylifesucksanditssomebodyelsesfault.com. I'm sure Jerry Springer is looking to do a "I didn't wanna be a Daddy" episode. Go write a book, do a bunch of videos, all for Dads who want out. I have no doubt you're not alone. The deadbeat parents list in every state is massive and that is your target demographic. Perhaps you can get lawyer sponsors who will help you all find loopholes and create situations for easing your horrible burdens. WAIT! NEVERMIND... you ARE(writing a book)! I'm with ya now. This is "research." Ok. Fine. Good luck with that too. I've got one better for you though. A reality show! Make it COOL to not want to be a Dad. You got this. You're a natural.

Who said anything at all about life being fair? Everybody has to learn that reality, it's weird that you're learning(well, experiencing) it so late in life, and it's very heartbreaking that your daughter is going to learn it so early and so harshly.

You banged her. She wasn't so worthless then. Suck it up and at least do what you should do to be a responsible father - pay the support bills.

And, a vasectomy isn't all that bad.

Though your situation is not ideal, your attitude towards your daughter (an innocent bystander that is the ultimate outcome of your own bad decisions) is horrendous in my opinion.

Being a parent is about being selfless. I hope for your sake that you wake up one day and grasp the fact that your children are the only lasting mark you are going to leave on this world, and that your daughter never has to bear witness to the selfishness that you are spewing in this thread.

I got a tip you're working on a book. Looking to become the Bizarro World version of Dale Carnegie? Are you here trolling for material or publicity?

BTW, folks, he's posted this question at Mothering and Father Advisor, too. FWIW, the folks at Mothering are very encouraging, and the folks at Father Advisor regard him as a self-absorbed prick. We seem to be somewhere in the middle.

So, how many more of these can we expect, Heel?

Well, I found the book by AJ Moses, known to us as HeelDaddy. Voila: "What to Expect When You're Expecting (the Worst)"

So is AJ just here "spreading his gospel of asshollectualism" or working on a sequel?

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!!!

Heh...all right, you got me. Let me preface this post by congratulating someone on their detective work...but now, I guess it's time for full disclosure.

The person typing this message is AJ Moses (I'm a real boy, see my FB account? www.facebook.com/ajse7en). Like I said, I'm a real person with real concerns. I was assigned a baby about 6 months back, and it's true, I did write a book about the...unique...experience of an unplanned pregnancy.

HeelDaddy, however, is a persona I created to kind of test drive the most extreme version of the perspective set forth in the book. He's an amalgamation of my own personal situation (better than his, I'm still with my son's priceless mommy and I got a boy) and the frustrations of many people in my position who aren't as lucky and wouldn't dare speak up on their resulting feelings because of..well, the response in this thread.

The book does contain many of the uncomfortably candid ideas HeelDaddy put forth, but mainly because I recognize them as a logical response to an unwelcome and permanent situation and want to help others work through them to possibly become suitable parents. See, I come from a community with a 60% single parent rate...if I can do anything about that, it's damn sure worth being called a few names online.

I'm sorry if anybody feels "trolled", but I'd honestly put it more along the lines of a social experiment. The book is already written (but not released) so I wasn't looking for material...I was and am legitimately interested in the opinions of proud parents everywhere. I actually enjoyed our little sparring match, and saw many valid, angry points in the thread.

If you'd like my true views on the matter, I do feel that kids are a bit overrated but I can already see where raising one has merit...once he's potty trained and can catch, I'll be hooked. I'm not anywhere near as over-the-top as HeelDaddy, but I took it upon myself to say what most people only think to find out why they don't say it. Now that I know the worst possible reponses, I feel that I can handle the backlash that will doubtless come with my book.

Anyway, I'll still be around in the discussions even though my cover has been blown. I'll even still participate in this one if there's any continued interest in anything in it. I don't see where I can be quite so heelish any more, but it was interesting while it lasted. Thanks for all your input...your kids are fortunate to have you around.

AJ

We called bullshit, and I still call bullshit.

What are you expecting now? "Oh it's all good Brah, just a social experiment. Good one." What-TF-ever.

There is sooo much you deserve to be thrashed on. But I find myself thinking, Why? For what purpose? Flipping off an idiot who almost sideswipes you on the highway isn't going to make them NOT almost sideswipe you or the next guy next time. They're an idiot driver because either they choose to be, or they really are that fkn stupid. No amount of explanation, tickets, or car damage is ever going to get through. It will always be someone else's fault.

Bugger off.

"HeelDaddy, however, is a persona I created to kind of test drive the most extreme version of the perspective set forth in the book. He's an amalgamation of my own personal situation (better than his, I'm still with my son's priceless mommy and I got a boy) and the frustrations of many people in my position who aren't as lucky and wouldn't dare speak up on their resulting feelings because of..well, the response in this thread."

Am I reading you wrong, or are you implying that someone with that attitude should be able to openly discuss those feelings? I'm rather inclined to think he shouldn't. Shame, properly considered, is a good thing. There are some socially undesirable attitudes that should most definitely be shamed and make their holders ashamed. The kind of completely self-centered persona you presented should be absolutely ashamed of being such a pathetic excuse for a human being.

"The book does contain many of the uncomfortably candid ideas HeelDaddy put forth, but mainly because I recognize them as a logical response to an unwelcome and permanent situation and want to help others work through them to possibly become suitable parents. See, I come from a community with a 60% single parent rate...if I can do anything about that, it's damn sure worth being called a few names online."

I see a big difference between a reluctant parent and an unrepentent hedonistic man-child. I applaud your goal of addressing the problem of deadbeat dads. I can even appreciate your willingness to endure flames to reach that goal. I'm not sure it's necessary, though. I think you'd find a lot of folks on these forums and elsewhere who would be enthusuastic about addressing this issue. Whether parenthood makes people happy or miserable is an open question in psychology and sociology that I'm sure many would find interesting. You may find it rather difficult to find willing conversation partners now, though.

"I'm sorry if anybody feels trolled', but I'd honestly put it more along the lines of a social experiment. The book is already written (but not released) so I wasn't looking for material...I was and am legitimately interested in the opinions of proud parents everywhere. I actually enjoyed our little sparring match, and saw many valid, angry points in the thread."

The only thing that separates what you did from classic trolling was that you weren't doing it for lulz - assuming we can trust anything you say now. It was a betrayal of trust, *especially* after I gave you a chance to be honest. Staying cloaked because I asked if you were trolling, not using a fake persona for research, was a rather narrow, self-serving, and dishonorable interpretation and response.

"If you'd like my true views on the matter, I do feel that kids are a bit overrated but I can already see where raising one has merit...once he's potty trained and can catch, I'll be hooked. I'm not anywhere near as over-the-top as HeelDaddy, but I took it upon myself to say what most people only think to find out why they don't say it."

This would have been a much better starting point that what you chose. In response, though, I must say what you've expressed is rather self-serving and it objectifies human beings, who are properly regarded as subjects. Specifically, people are subjects of whom the only proper treatment is love (c.f. the writings of Karol Woytyla, aka Pope John Paul II). Having a child, and by extension raising one, does not have merit because you get something out of it. People should not be regarded and treated according to a utilitarian calculus. A child - pure, inncocent, and full of potential - is a beautiful thing whether or not he/she is wanted and whether or not he/she offers any pleasurable "reward" to someone for raising him/her. I don't deny that enjoying parethood is easier for many people once there is some kind of obvious positive feedback from children (e.g., smiles, hugs, saying "I love you"). However, that feedback isn't the raison d'etre or soul of parenthood.

Just what the deep meaning and purpose of parenthood can be discussed another time if you can find willing discussion partners after your charade. Suffice for now to say that hedonic reward isn't it.

"Now that I know the worst possible reponses, I feel that I can handle the backlash that will doubtless come with my book.'

I have to ask: do you really know men who are seemingly irredeemably douchebags like your HeelDaddy persona? If so, what do you attribute that deplorable attitude to? Fathers or other good male role models absent in their lives?

"Anyway, I'll still be around in the discussions even though my cover has been blown. I'll even still participate in this one if there's any continued interest in anything in it. I don't see where I can be quite so heelish any more, but it was interesting while it lasted. Thanks for all your input...your kids are fortunate to have you around."

Thanks...I think. Trust will have to be earned back, and it won't be easy - if it's possible at all. I'm game for giving you another chance, but I've always been a glutton for punishment.

Anyone who legitimately feels like that should just walk away. The kid would be better off.

Okay, check this out.

What's done is done. I came and participated in the manner I did for the reasons I stated. No more, no less. The word "heel" is right in the name, I assumed some darker elements to my contributions might be implied, so it wouldn't be that much of a surprise when it wasn't all sunshine and lollipops. Truthfully, I did far more explaining than I planned to do or than I owed anyone in the first place, and if that's not acceptable, I'm not sure what to tell any concerned parties other than to express my gratitude for their irrelevancy to the situation, otherwise there'd be a damn thing to be done about it.

As for the ad hominem attacks on my person and persona, I can't agree with what those people say but the certainly have as much right to say it as I had to say what I said...freely and openly. To even suggest otherwise would make me a hypocrite, isn't that right?

I could sit here and respond to each and every one, but...what would be the point? I've gotten all I needed from this particular discussion, I find the idea of actually defending my real-life parenting to anyone laughable, and waiting and debating around for a "thrashing" that's impossible in prose and in person isn't an effective use of my time. I do find the use of puerile tactics like name-calling and arguing the person instead of the point by someone who claims to have such a profound sense of maturity amusing, though.

All that typed, if my violation of the sacred bond of transparency between strangers on the internet in leisure time is such that I am no longer a welcome element in this community, then I'll resign. I thought that a place called DadLabs might be an interesting place to explore theories on parenthood, but I suppose I was wrong.
Wouldn't be the first time today. If my insights ain't appreciated here, I can take them many elsewheres.

I do leave you with this thought though...isn't telling someone who didn't plan a child, got one anyway, and isn't immediately enamored to "just walk away" like telling a person on a ledge to "just jump" or telling a person in a job they don't like to "just quit"? These are permanent decisions with indelible effect on all of us if you think about it for 15 seconds. I like to think of myself as a person who believes that people can be talked through unpleasant things, they just need to hear the words in their own head in the discussion so they can processed into rational action. Sometimes it gets as messy as life, and I thought I was just being honest about it. But hey...fuck it, I guess I'm just a troll.

See ya later,

AJ