So my 7 yo got bit by a classmates dog while at their home for a first play date. The dog got him on the stomach, not deep. The wound is the size of a silver dollar, and I don't think there will be any permanent scars. My son's learned a valuable lesson in the true level of his ability w/strange dogs as well as the lesson of listening to grown ups.

I've learned a lesson in being more careful as a parent to ensure an environment where you're leaving your child in someone else's care is as safe as can be. I made a couple of critical errors in a) not sticking around to meet the dog; b) not asking more pointed direct questions to ensure the dog was safe and that they were going to take more active precautions to keep the kids separated.

What still grates my nerves 3 days later is that a) I'm disappointed in myself in that I know in my head, if this had happened at another friends' house, where I knew the family better and had established more trust, I'd feel differently. I wouldn't still be as pissed as I am. I'm not proud of that fact, but it's there. b) I am still legitimately upset at these people that they have a dog that they obviously knew had issues. The standing directions to the boys (which were explained to me belatedly) were: if you want to come downstairs, send my son's classmate alone first, because the dog is familiar with him. Then the parents would put the dog up and then my son could come down.

Am I wrong in thinking that if you own a dog that is THAT unpredictable, you shouldn't be having children over to your home in the first place?! And if you're going to have guests of any age, at a minimum, shouldn't that dog be more actively secured? Crated, perhaps? Closed up in it's own room maybe where the kids can't get access? Not loose in the primary living room of the home that the kids have to travel through to get from the child's bedroom to anywhere else in the home?

I mean, I'm a lifetime dog owner (all large breeds) and I consider myself very responsible. I accept that in this case where my son got bit, I made mistakes and I'm sorry that he suffered for it. My son knows that he made mistakes, too. I'm also thankful that the situation wasn't any worse. But there's still a part of me that wants to rail at these people and just say, "REALLY?! What were you thinking." Kids by their nature are just flat out unpredictable. Even the best intentioned, best-behaved kids make bad choices that we as grown ups can't predict or understand. I just feel they should have done a whole lot more to avoid what could have truly been a tragedy.

Can bet your bottom dollar any future play dates are going to take place at a neutral site like a city park or museum until we establish some trust.

Thanks for the chance to vent.

Wow. This is a distressing episode for me. Maybe because I AM NOT A DOG PERSON. Can everybody hear me? Brad, you listening?

This whole episode is unforgivable, in my opinion. You are right on every count. Valuing the animal's freedom of movement more that your child's safety disgusts me. Such a dog should not be allowed in the house, period. It is a danger to the children that live there. The family doesn't think so, but it's painfully obvious that these people are delusional. Keep your children away from their house in the future.

I'm enraged. People in this country have lost their minds. Their willingness to take care of their fellow man has decreased in direct proportion to treat their fucking pets like pashas. It's a sick fetish, and a perversion of what used to be a fairly dependable human tendency toward decency.

You may have hit a nerve, I'm not sure.

More rationally, can the host of a playdate ever be trusted to tell the truth about the safety of their dogs? I think not. Does that mean a no-playdate rule with families that have dogs? Seems extreme. But there needs to be a policy here.

Reasonable dog owners (*echo, echo*) please chime in.

Hit a nerve? Sounds like I unintentionally drove over it. Yikes.

One of the things that I am taking away from this is that I have to be more responsible as a parent who hosts these play dates with other people's kids and also is a dog owner.

Much as I hate to admit it. If I’m truly honest, we've been lucky in our home. I don't believe that our dog would ever put it's teeth on a child out of anger, but as I said, kids can be unpredictable, and I'll admit that in the past, I've afforded the kids and the dog too much trust.

It’s entirely plausible that if the child had come to our house, I could have found myself in a position where I would have had to make a call to the other child's parents that would have gone something like this. “Hi Mr or Mr’s Playmate’s Parent. This is Whirlwind’s Dad. That we’ve had a bit of an accident over here. The kids were out back with our very large dog and they were all running around playing tag having a grand old time until our 120 lb dog leaned into your running 50 lb 1st grader.

They got tangled up and took a tumble together. Your child fell down and the dog tripped over him/her. Your child has a fairly large scratch down the back of their leg now where the dog’s nails ran down the child’s leg when the stumbled. We cleaned that all up. We’re also icing the lump on your child’s head where s/he hit the 4x4’s that surround the play area. I don’t think they have a concussion, but they’re definitely going to have a lump for the next couple of days.”

So now, we're revising the rules in our house. Universally, when our boy has a play date, kids are inside and the dog is OUTSIDE. That's always been standard procedure in our home.

But as Summer approaches and the kids are going to want to get outside more, we'll have to change the rules of engagement. While we never have, nor ever will leave my son and his playmates unattended in the backyard with our own dog. I can tell you that rather than allow myself the luxury to be distracted with chores and yard work as I have in the past. (Which let's face it is a real bummer. Why do we have play dates - so kids can entertain themselves and grown ups can get adult things accomplished. Now that's not going to happen anymore. Just a fact of life.)

I'm going to have make a deeper commitment to more actively monitor the kids and dog. So that I don't ever find myself on the other side of this situation.

In terms of this specific playmate -- I think it's highly unlikely we'll allow our boy to go back over there. There are additional layers to this story in that, even prior to this incident we've had questions about whether or not this child is a good playmate/friend for our son. That'll end up a separate thread.

In terms of future play dates at homes with dogs, I can promise you a few things. 1)We'll still allow him to go to homes with dogs, HOWEVER our kids won't stay at a house with dogs again until my wife or I have met the dog personally. 2) We will be asking very pointed/direct questions about just how the kids/dogs will be separated/monitored/supervised.

Watch Dog Whisperer on Nat Geo. Dogs are alright. Most of the time I've seen empty nestors treat dogs like their children actually they probably didn't let their kids get away with stuff as much as their dogs do. A well balanced dog wont harm a child. I dont have one but I have friends and family who do and I would not hesitate to leave my child with these dogs I know.

@DaddyRoger -- Don't get me started on the Dog Whisperer. I get so irate about the dog owners that they feature on that show. To your point, most of those people are so maladjusted, it's amazing they get themselves through a day.

However, I do embrace and try to emulate Ceasar Milan's basic tenets, which I do agree with. "Rules, boundaries, limitations, discipline and THEN affection."

Remarkable how easily those basic principles can be modified to apply to child rearing as well.

Its actually true they say dogs and kids reflect the state of a person or even a household. Those people are featured because they are the extreme cases he is trying to solve and do not represent most dog owners. Baby psychologist say the same thing that during the early years kids can get affected by the household and the relationship that we have with our partners. Dogs and humans (when their babies) have this amazing ability to sense your mood and your thoughts. They know when things are not going well and they can get stressed. Which is why I tell my wife we never every fight in front of the kid if we ever do. I can give you links of books and articles that I have read that state this.

As a life long dog owner and childhood victim of a similar dog bite all I can say is That Really Sucks.

First and foremost if the family had even the slightest inclination that the dog could pose a bite risk (which it sounds like they did) the dog should have been restrained away from the kids. There is no excuse for that dog to be inside the house when other kids are present. They might as well leave butcher knives and scorpions on the couch.

You have every right to be angry.

I do however think most families are respectful of visiting children and dogs during play dates. One of my sons good friends, kennel their pooch when friends are over visiting, not because he is mean and is a bite risk, but because he is big and goofy and is an accidental knockdown risk. I am fairly sure the only risk our dog Camp poses is a stink risk. But I will be more mindful of how kids react when they come over to play with our children. They might be frightened of dogs and too embarrassed to tell an adult and I would hate for a child to feel unsafe in our home.

@DaddyRoger -- I completely agree that young children like pets are able to "sense" a mood in a home or to get a vibe off of a person, and reflect it, even if they don't understand it. And you're right. The cases they show on Dog Whisperer are extreme to make for more dramatic/compelling TV. They just drive me a little wild, so as much as I respect what he's doing in the grander scheme of things, I can't watch the shoe myself.

@DaddyBrad -- Thanks. I think we're in the same camp.Our dog is a 120 lb Greater Swiss Mountain Dog. She is definitely a knock down risk to kids and adults alike. That's why standing rule in our home is all doors in our home are always locked to prevent accidental human walk ins. Our dog wouldn't be aggressive, but she would want to greet any guest that walks in with a lot of enthusiasm and 120lbs builds up a lot of momentum that doesn't stop quickly on the linoleum. But at least, you can't get in my home without alerting a grown up. When someone knocks the dog goes outside and can't come in until guests are seated and the dog calms down and can greet people gently.

Regarding guests feelings, you raise a very good point. Our family does need to be more mindful of our guests perceptions/emotions around our lovable beast, because at her size she is definitely imposing. We'll have to be more careful to take that into consideration as well.

Thanks all. I really appreciate the dialogue.

We have a four month old so going over a friends' house is many years away from us. However, I am reading this thread with wide eyes. There is so much to think about when raising a child... add dog-smarts to the list.

Yes, great thread. +1 more on your right to be angry. There's not really anything you can do about it for their family, but if they ever ask why lil' Whirlwind doesn't come over anymore, you can just say matter of factly, "Your dog bites children."

Our dog died when the boy was about 1 and half, and he was 13, old and slow and mellow. So it really was never a concern once we slowly introduced him to the baby. He was fairly indifferent to the whole lil' human thing.

We recently had 2 of our 3 cats die, within a week... so now we are a 1 animal household. We are constantly asked, even more now, when we are going to get another dog (or cat)... And almost every single person looks at us like we're crazy when we say not until theBoy is 5 or 6. Is that unreasonable? To wait until a child sees a pet as an animal and not a walking plushtoy? I miss the old buggers, but 1 cat is soooo much more manageable. No more than 1 cat and 1 dog, ever again.

I hadn't really thought about the whole dog bite thing much, because our dog was always extremely friendly, with everyone invited in. (But he'd sure make you think he'd tear ya a new one if you were just standing on the porch and he was at the door.) He was also a Scotty, so not terribly big, but his bark was HUGE.

I am not a fan of large breeds for the reasons mentioned by others. And if one did decide to go Cujo for whatever reason, not exactly easy to gain control of a 150lb beast when I myself tip the scales at just over 160. Just too high maintenance. And cleaning up lil' dog poop and cat litter is bad enough.

But DaddyClay, tell us how your really feel about it.

@roger_pdx - yeah, it's amazing the pages that get left out of the Daddy Handbook, that we have to work out for ourselves.

@concretin_nik You make a great point, that it really is as simple as that. Whirlwind won't go back to play there because their dog is dangerous and their home is not safe.

As for waiting until your boy is older to get a new dog, I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. I think it's a great choice. At that age, he should be able to really be involved in the decision making process (with parental guidelines/direction of course) about what kind of dog you may get next. Maybe he can help name it, and at that age, he should certainly be able to handle limited responsibilities like feeding (again under parental supervision). There's a better potential that he'll have more emotional investment in the experience and therefore a better relationship with the dog.

As far as the big dog/little dog discussion. I understand your rational, but don't share it. IMO, it all comes down to responsible ownership/training both for the humans in the family and the dog. For every "large" dog that I've known that was problematic, I've known an equal number of little dogs that I'd never trust in the presence of kids. Does a larger dog have the physical presence/tools to do more damage more quickly than a small dog, yes. Is a large dog more likely to do more damage than a small dog? I'd debate that.

Great discussion all!

I should clarify that I totally agree that the dog owner has a great deal to do with how a dog behaves. My SIL has HUGE labs (like heavy huge too) and we've let TheBoy stay with them, because we know they are well trained and great with kids. (We'd seen the evidence many times at family gatherings.)

I'm just not comfortable with larger breeds myself (skinny bugger), so the attention, stress, and yes, plain effort involved for ME to own one is more than I'm willing to exert for such a pet. I get the same "pet benefits" from a Scotty, and I can move him around and his poop ain't the size of my head.

And yes, many many people don't control their little dogs with proper training, because they think they can control them with brute force. Training is essential no matter the size of the dog.

But I don't care how great a dog trainer/responsible pet owner someone is, there are breeds that I want nothing to do with and do not want around my child. Period. "Breedist" (racism for dogs)? Yep. Ain't ashamed. My experience with them and the tragic news stories are always the same breeds, so if someone wants to raise one around their family, that's fine. But keep 'em away from mine because I'd really hate to ever have to find out just what my skinny arse could do to a dog to save my child(or any child for that matter). Guaranteed I'd "win" and I can imagine it would be very very ugly.

Sorry. Don't mean to derail the thread. (too late) (Though I am a bit curious as to what breed the biter was... big dog? Little dog?)

Perry the Platypus seems like a much easier pet to manage. AND he fights evil!

Hey Nik

Totally understand where you're coming from. And as a life long dog owner, I share your thought process and "breedism" (BTW-love that term) regarding some breeds that I would never own because of their breeding and tendencies.

I deliberately left the breed out of this story to avoid that aspect. I will volunteer now that it was a mid-size dog (about 35 lbs) and it was a mutt. It's lineage is composed of a breed that many would consider dangerous AND other breeds that you would normally trust outright, so I consider that a wash. This specific bite incident is more about the collective grown ups (myself included) personal responsibility, training (of both kids and pets)and less about breed.

I really appreciate everyone's input. It's really helped me to reconcile my feelings on the situation and it's given my wife and I a lot of perspective on how we intend to manage future play dates.

Wow, great thread. Rogerpdx and I are snacking and listenning

Krellpw, you are being more than generously responsible (can I say it like that?) in accepting more than your fair share of blame, as well as more than your childs fair share. (All meant as a compliment to your character).

I am a dog lover, but have no patience for a bad dog owner and/or a bad dog. And just becasue I love a good dog doesn't mean I want to own a dog.

And I don't like them on the mountain bike trails. (If there is a dog anywhere on the mountain, it will figure out your exact line and run it right in front of you at a pace slower than you were going, and while it may understand the commands "sit", "stay", and "rollower", I haven't met one yet that understands "On your left" or "Pick it up!.)


I had great dog ownership experiences as a boy with a German Shepard, and again later as a young adult with what the vet figured was most likely half German Shepard, half Black Lab . (I was at the dump one day and saw a bag move and heard a little cry. I moved it open with a stick and there was one little days-old puppy still alive amongst all it's dead litter siblings in an old bag of Cheetos and other trash. Of course I cleaned her off, put between my tshirt and sweatshirt (Baby Bjorn style) and took her home with me. Named her Cheeto and I once again became a dog owner).


We have not ruled out getting a dog someday, but probably will not.

Thanks for the support. I appreciate it. Trying to make sure that at least my family learns as much as we can from this incident so we don't make the same mistakes again, either as hosts or guests.

Totally agree about your perspective on dogs on Mountain Bike trails. Accidents just waiting to happen!

Amazing story about Cheeto. Stunningly tragic how some people will have absolutely no regard for life.

It is hard to believe that anyone would be so careless in regards to a childs safety. IMHO you have every right to deem the playmates house as unsafe and never return! They should have been far more responsible in containing/restraining their dog especially since they knew it had issues. Unforgivable in my eyes. Luckily no one was seriously injured and we are all learning from this unfortunate experience.

This might be a bit off topic but...

Having three large breed dogs and soon to be a first time parent, this is a very helpful thread. My wife and I, from the moment we learned we were pregnant, have started taking precautions with the dogs and setting new rules in the house. Things like, no dogs in the nursery (they are all trained to stop at the door jam no matter how tempting a smell on the other side might be), everyone must sit and wait before coming inside or through door ways, waiting patiently for food, no aggression towards food or toys is allowed EVER (towards other dogs and people alike). I find we have far more rules for our dogs then anyone I have ever met, but we feel that is how it should be in order to maintain a balanced pack of high energy dogs.

People who cannot control their dogs, on leash or off just make me sick. And you better believe when my wife demands a sit at the dog park (she is leader of the pack) they all know they have to sit and wait to be released no matter what is going on around them.

Something I have noticed and I am just pointing this out cause it has happened a few times with our dogs... a lot of parents are not teaching their kids how to properly interact with dogs. We have had many kids run up to our dogs and just start petting them. This scares the cr*p out of us since we do have an unpredictable dog that has been known to snap at kids when they corner her. I use to always hear parents tell their kids "never walk up to a strange dog, always ask permission before you touch someones dog" what happened to those days? I am in no way saying anyone in this thread has done this, just something I have noticed in the area I live in.

@oldmischief -- Your timing is ironic. I was helping the boy get dressed for bed last night and looking at the scar on his belly. I'm starting to think he's going to have a permanent reminder of that day and a touchstone to always go back to when thinking about dogs.

Sounds like you're putting some great rules in for the dogs as you await the arrival of your child.

I would offer one additional consideration that you may have thought of but didn't list. Toys. Specifically, what type of toys do you allow your dogs to play with? You may want to consider that and institute some policies with gift givers. Here's my point. We had a dog long before we had a child and the dog had chew toys with squeakers in them that we would allow him to chew until they were destroyed!

Many infant toys come with very similar noise makers. You may want to ask friends and families to ensure that if they're thinking of giving your child plush toy gifts, to ensure that they have no noise makers in them.

The alternative being, replace all your noise making dog toys now and start giving your dogs toys that don't have noise makers.

Just a thought.

And I totally agree about parents needing to be responsible in raising their kids to understand that you don't just run up and reach out to touch, hug, or pet a dog just because it's with a human, leased or not. Our kids are taught, always ask first.

krellpw-

Perhaps the scar will continue to fade in time, or he will have a fantastic battle story to tell his future girlfriends.

You bring up a fantastic point. My wife and I were actually laughing about a baby toy that looked like a rattle but squeaked like a dog toy, just the other day. It is amazing that the two can be entertained by the same thing. We do have plush squeaky toys for the dogs, but they are only given as rewards for calm behavior. That being said, we will definitely have to revisit our use of them before the baby arrives. Our dogs are also trained not to grab toys from hands, they have to be "given" the toy in order for to have it. Makes things like mistaken bites when grabbing for toys a lot less of a issue. Thank you for bringing it up! I think we will have to implant a new rule regarding squeakers and what counts.

Thanks again.

Here is an interesting artice about a dog bite that occured and did not turn out so well. <a>www.brookslawgroup.com/blog/dog-bite-res...h-old-baby/<a>

This is a truly a tragic event! There are not a whole lot of details surrounding this story, but it seems to me that so many things were done wrong and this should never have happened in the first place. Who would ever leave their six month old alone?! Isn't this baby basics? Never leave your child unattended? Especially when there is an unfamiliar animal or other sort of stranger in the room with it?!

This is so sad because the two who are probably the least at fault for this accident are punished the most for it: the baby obviously has the worst of it but the dog too will most likely be euthanized when it should never have been put into that situation.

Sad sad story, my heart goes out to the poor child who deserved to have chance at life.